Mallam
Nasir el-Rufai, with characteristic candour and verve, discusses his
new book, his travails, his many fights, and... 2015.
Interview: Olusegun Adeniyi and Waziri Adio.
Prologue: Simon Kolawole.
Prologue
You
don’t know Mallam Nasir Ahmad el-Rufai if you think you know him. He is
a politician (at least, he was a card-carrying member of the People’s
Democratic Party and is now a chieftain of the Congress for Progressive
Change). But he is not a politician (well, he talks too bluntly). He is a
technocrat (he regrets paying little attention to the politics of
economic reform under President Olusegun Obasanjo). But he is not a
technocrat (or, rather, he is an accidental public servant who one day
received an epiphany that if government doesn’t work, society will not
work). Surely, el-Rufai is not one man you can describe in one sentence
without a lot of parenthesis and footnotes.
Depending
on the angle from which you are staring at him, you could be seeing a
bully or a bully’s nightmare. You are either seeing a frank,
no-nonsense, no-mercy personality or a conceited, attention-grabbing,
uncharitable character. You don’t encounter el-Rufai and walk away
indifferent. You might hate him. You might like him. You might fancy
him. You might detest him. You might adore him. You might disdain him.
But you can't be indifferent.
With
el-Rufai, what you get is always what you ordered. And maybe much more.
Whether he is writing a book or granting an interview, he works up a
whale of aftershocks. His book, 'The Accidental Public Servant,' has
practically set the house on fire with explosives hauled in the
direction of virtually everyone he worked with in his eventful public
service career, notably Obasanjo and former Vice-President Atiku
Abubakar.
In
this engaging interview with Metropole, he is no less explosive. He
offers no apologies and expresses no regrets, apart from a frequent
refrain of “I am only human." He has challenged anyone who feels
disturbed or offended enough to write their own books. Simple enough.
But he says he is also ready to defend himself if anybody defames him in
their responses. As at the time of going to press, most responses were
still sketchy and measured, but a safe forecast would be that he would
face severe lightning and thunder from those offended, and there is more
than a handful of them.
He
defends himself on all charges of self-righteousness (“No, I didn’t
talk about my weaknesses because I left that for others”),
self-promotion (“I have no political motives in writing this book”),
vendetta (“I am a permanent suspect” with regards to claims he is bitter
because Obasanjo did not make him president in 2007). Most
importantly, el-Rufai would not want you to walk away having a wrong
impression of him-– even if he admits he has no control over that. The
applied mathematician sees himself as a victim (he didn’t use that word)
of mathematical precision.
“I
think that many people misunderstand me,” he says. “I also think that
people have expectations of how people should talk or relate and if you
are different you are considered a heretic. But for me I have been
brought up to be truthful and to say my mind and maybe because of my
training as a mathematician I say it as efficiently as possible.” Is one
plus one always equal to two? Or isn’t it? It is the way el-Rufai sees
the world, and he makes that plain and plain again in this hell of an
interview.
Interview
What was it like writing your book?
It
was both exhilarating and challenging for me. Exhilarating because I
believed I had a story to tell after nine interesting years in public
service. I thought that my mistakes and achievements, if any, and my
interactions all add up to useful lessons for those that aspire to a
life in public service. But as someone trained to think numerically, it
was really difficult writing the book. It took me three years.
Why write the book now? Is this a manifesto for 2015?
It
is a story which I had decided to write while in government because I
think we don’t document experiences enough. I said so in the book. For
instance, I came out of council chambers after being sworn in as a
minister and two people approached me. One of them said he was my chief
of protocol and the other said he was my chief security officer. In
truth, I had never in my life imagined that once you were sworn in as
minister you would get this. It’s not something that anyone had written
about or told me. So there are a few things about senior-level
government positions that no one prepares you for. I think that we need
to prepare people.
Secondly,
of course, there are aspects of my public service that have been
distorted, misrepresented and misunderstood. And unless I tell my story,
that misrepresentation will become the history. I recall it was Winston
Churchill that said ‘history will be kind to me because I intend to
write it’. But one thing this book is not about is any political
aspiration. If you have political aspirations you won’t write the book
the way I did.
In the book, you wrote about the weaknesses of everyone else except yourself…
No,
I didn’t talk about my weaknesses because I left that for others. I’m
sure if you ask them, they will also tell you about mine. I only tried
to describe how we worked as a team and what I contributed and what
others contributed. I do not think that while writing the book I wanted
in any way to project myself.
I
think I was lucky I had an environment that enabled me get a few things
done. I not only had a team but also peers that supported me and a boss
that stood behind me. It was just luck. Yes of course I came in with my
own skills. But even with those skills, if I did not have that
environment I could not have succeeded and I made that very clear. And
that is why I choose not to work with certain people. I made the choice.
Before
we handed over I went to [President Umaru Musa] Yar’Adua and
congratulated him and said I was leaving. This was because I didn’t want
him to make me an offer and if I said no and it would become a problem.
I can look at a person’s personality and know that we may not be able
to flow. Obasanjo I understood and he understood me. Even though we
disagreed vehemently on many issues, he knew I disagreed with him on
principles.
The
central argument of your book is that public service matters and you
mentioned how you had your own Road to Damascus experience in 1996. What
really happened and what are the lessons?
Most
Nigerian middle class people had and still have this attitude that
government is for others and politics is for thugs. More like, ‘I will
just make money and protect myself from the failings of government.’ If
electricity supply is irregular, buy a generator; water supply is
irregular, drill your borehole. We have now extended it to if the
aviation industry is not functioning well, buy a private jet. The police
are not doing very well, get private security or get the police and pay
them. Meanwhile, everything around you is falling apart.
Honestly,
back in the 80s when I left the university that was also my attitude. I
am a chattered quantity surveyor and there were about 20 of us in the
whole country and I would not starve. I would always have jobs and make
enough money to live well. That was my attitude and that was why when I
was offered to join public service I declined. But in 1996 something
happened. I had finished building my big house in Kaduna, my wife had
her brand new car and I had mine too. But we woke up one morning and
there was no petrol for the cars and no diesel for the generator.
Reason? A failing government.
And
that was when it dawned on me that there are certain things no amount
of money can buy you. Are you going to build your refinery? If you build
your refinery, are you going to drill your crude oil? That minimal
functionality of government is a given. When there is no government
nothing else is possible. When there is a malfunctioning government
things become extremely hard for everybody. That was when I said, ‘wow
my attitude towards government is wrong and anytime I get a chance to be
in government I will accept it and go and do my very best because we
need a government that works minimally.’
Now you have been there and done that. What are the lessons you have picked up?
I
have looked at countries that have succeeded, and I have never seen a
country in which its best people are not in government. The best people
or the first eleven in every country should be the ones in government.
Let business get the second and third best. Unless we can get our
government to function, nothing else will be possible. No matter how
hard you work, you will just be struggling against the tide if your
government doesn’t work. So for me it’s a compelling passion that
anywhere I speak to young people I tell them to consider politics and
government. That I believe is my calling rather than contesting.
There
is no other way of changing the lives of millions of people for the
better by the stroke of a pen than by being in government. I spent 20
years in quantity surveying trying to control the cost of buildings and
fighting corruption and so on. But what impact did it have other than on
one project and one client, etc.? But in government one decision can
create opportunities for millions. One decision can also kill millions
of unborn children and their future. So I think it’s important for
people to recognise that government is really important and
participation in politics is vital for us to change the direction of our
country.
How do people who heed your call ensure they do not get burnt? Drawing from your experience, what will make them succeed?
Well,
I am not sure I didn’t get burnt myself and I am not sure I succeeded
either. Look at my life: I went into government and came out only to be
exiled. So I don’t know whether there is a way you can get into these
things without getting burnt. I think you should go in with the
understanding that there is a possibility that you will get burnt. But
the country is worth it. The future of our children is worth it. I think
success in politics and government is like success everywhere else.
Work hard, apply yourself, put in your best, be honest and leave the
rest to God. I don’t think I can give any template other than that. A
lot of luck also comes into it and as I said earlier I was lucky in most
of my assignments. But I do think we should have a go at it and those
that are in leadership should deliberately try to attract better quality
people into government. That is the only way to succeed.
There
is a thin line between courage and discretion. Looking back, are there
things that you wished you didn’t write in the book?
I
don’t know. But I feel that everything in that book needed to be told. I
will not know now what mistakes I made until the book is out in the
public. I am sure there are mistakes. I am sure there are things I might
regret having written because I am human. But I wrote and rewrote that
book over a three-year period. I got it read by many people who were
part of the events just to crosscheck and they corrected me on many
things, dates and sequence of events etc.
How do you think Obasanjo will feel reading the book?
President
Obasanjo will not necessarily be happy with the book, but that is okay.
I tried to be balanced about him. He is very important to me and he
gave me the opportunity to be in public service. I will always be
grateful to him. But I can’t pretend that Obasanjo as president was
perfect. I argued with him as a minister, even in cabinet meetings.
There were people that were surprised I survived because anytime he
brought something that I believed was not in the best interest of
Nigeria, I argued.
But
there is a difference between telling somebody I disagree with you or
you have this flaws and putting it in the open. Do you think you were
fair to him?
I
think I was fair to him. We are public figures and we will continue to
be scrutinised and we should understand that whatever we do will be
public. This is the age of transparency and accountability. Anything you
say or do if you don’t want it to be public you better not say it. This
is the age we live in. I don’t know whether Obasanjo will be happy with
this book or not, but it is my truth and I think overall all of us
should sacrifice our pleasures for this country to make progress. Let
the country make progress and we will all benefit from it.
Obasanjo has always said he never sought third term. From accounts from the book, are you saying that Obasanjo was lying?
Well,
you have to ask Obasanjo that question. I have written my book and my
story. I have mentioned names because there were people involved and I
was not the only one relating with Obasanjo on this matter. Go and check
with them. I can only say my own side of the story.
There
is a school of thought amongst Obasanjo’s supporters that you are
writing things against Obasanjo because he did not hand over power to
you?
I
am a permanent suspect, you know. The late Yar’Adua went after me
because of that. I have stopped explaining myself or defending myself on
that. I have written my book and those that say this is the reason
should write their own book and prove that I wanted to be president at
any time. I am not an aspirant and I am not a contestant for any office.
I have said so and nobody believes me and people have gone after me,
people are still going after me because of that.
We gathered that Obasanjo believes you are a serial betrayer. What do you say to that?
Well,
that’s Obasanjo’s opinion and I will not comment on that. Free speech
is protected under the law provided you don’t defame. If and when I get
responses to the book I will decide whether there is any need to say
anything. But I have written this book and I will not go into any debate
or discussion about the book. I have said it all and if you don’t
agree, write your own. Talking about betrayal, since when did he
discover that I betrayed him? The last time we spoke he called me and
wanted me to do something for him.
Let’s
look at it this way. This is somebody that did a lot for you and you
don’t have to be singing his praises but you don’t also have to
necessarily de-robe him in public.
It
is my belief. I don’t have any issues choosing between anyone and
Nigeria’s interest. Now don’t get me wrong: I may perceive Nigeria’s
interest wrongly because I am human. But there is no way I will put any
individual however important he is to me against Nigeria’s interest. I
just won’t do it. Now Obasanjo said he didn’t want third term. My
experience was different and I have related my experience. Let him write
his own experience. Condoleezza Rice published her memoirs and she
mentioned something about Obasanjo going to George Bush and talking
about third term. This is not the first time and he can continue
denying. But let him write a story that contradicts some of these
stories. For me it’s not an issue of betrayal. We have a responsibility
to this country to say the truth.
Still
on the Third Term issue, there is a particular episode where you said
Obasanjo asked you to be his emissary to reach out to some people
possibly for support. He sent you a message and you were delivering your
own message. How do you interpret that?
I
was putting Nigeria’s interest first. I was working for the government
of Nigeria and what was going on was not something I believed helped the
constitutional development of Nigeria.
In
the book, you said if you had to choose between being loyal to somebody
and breaking the law, you will rather protect the law. But there was
nothing about third term that was about breaking the law: it was about
amending the constitution which is still part of the democratic process.
But looking back now with what has happened after that, do you think
you took the right position on Third Term?
I
think I did because I sleep well at night. The fact that those that
came after us didn’t quite do well is beside the point. The point is a
country’s life cycle is a long one and mistakes will be made. But we
have to build institutions and respect constitutions. It’s as simple as
that. I never had any doubt in my mind that if Obasanjo did not get a
third term it could go this way or that way. But for me that is still a
lesser evil because where do you draw the line with the third term
issue.
In
fact, I think some of the problems we still have in this country today
have their roots in the third term: the very uncertain handover and
absence of full briefing. I was in General Abdulsalami Abubakar’s
government and we briefed Obasanjo for a whole month. Each ministry had
one day to brief the incoming president. But when we were handing over
to Yar’Adua, each minister had 30 minutes. Tell me, how you can brief an
incoming president on the activities of any ministry in 30 minutes? I
think I was the only one that got close to one hour because apart from
the FCT, there were the public service reforms and others that I
handled. All this is part of the problem that we are still living with.
So for me, Third Term was just an adventure that this country didn’t
need and I do not have any doubt in my mind that we did the right thing.
By your own account, you had several confrontations with Obasanjo. How did you survive; what was your staying power?
I
honestly do not know. But I think it was because Obasanjo really liked
me as a person. There was something he liked about me and maybe he also
appreciated that I got difficult jobs done. And perhaps he also
appreciated that my confrontations with him were not driven by any
personal interest. If I think there is a better idea, I will argue with
anybody. If I opposed a contract then, it was not because I did not like
the contractor or because I wanted a friend of mine to get it. Obasanjo
sees through things like that. And as long as he believes that you are
doing things impersonally, he gives you a lot of slack.
You
worked with Vice President Atiku then and even from your narratives he
was instrumental into your becoming a minister. But you fell out with
him and left him in the cold and you took sides with the president. Why
was this so?
Yes,
I did because I think in his fight with Obasanjo he was wrong. I had to
balance who was more right than the other. And I took sides. I did not
hesitate in that regards.
Why did you think he was wrong?
If
you read the book, you will saw what I went through with Atiku, which
was something he was doing regularly to people. But even after those
things we worked together on many things because to be fair to Atiku,
while I was in BPE I never had any complaints about him apart from when
he tried to stick the Motorola issue on me. Then I threatened to resign.
But when I came to FCT, I saw a completely different face. And I just
had to make a choice. In this life you make choices, you balance good
and bad and make choices. And I made my choice.
So it is not because he lost out in the power equation?
Not
at all. I was not influenced by that. It was simply having to sit down
and look at the situations and say right versus wrong which one is more.
That’s it.
You
are somebody who excites strong opinions from people. Obasanjo said you
have a clever man problem. He also told you that you don’t know how to
talk to elders and you talk down on people. So which of this is true and
which is not? Who are you as a person?
I don’t know. I should ask you because I can’t critique myself.
Many
people also say you are cocky; you look down on people and all of that.
Are all these true or is it that you are misunderstood?
I
think that many people misunderstand me. I also think that people have
expectations of how people should talk or relate and if you are
different you are considered a heretic. But for me I have been brought
up to be truthful and to say my mind and maybe because of my training as
a mathematician I say it as efficiently as possible. Mallam Liman
Ciroma of blessed memory once called me and said ‘Nasir you don’t
respond to a person when he says something and you say you are wrong.
Say yes. But and then go on to deconstruct what he said.’ I told him
that I am not like that and that I will try to learn, that I was not
designed like that.
You
will find that many of the people that passed that judgement on me are
people that don’t even know me. People sit at a distance and pass their
judgement. What can I do? I have concluded since that there are three
kinds of people in the world. There are people that like me and I can’t
do any wrong as far as they are concerned. They just like me. Then there
are people that just dislike me. No matter what I do, they are not
impressed. They just don’t like me and they will never give me a chance.
Then there are a large majority of people that don’t know me and are
really indifferent. I have stopped worrying myself about the first and
the second classes of people. But I try to be as available and as
accessible as possible to those in the middle so that they can get to
know me. Now part of the reason I wrote this book is for people to know a
little bit about me other than the myths and the stories.
You
offered a good insight into the essential el-Rufai in your encounter
with a guy called Sunday, the bully who met his match. Two narratives
can be teased from that story. One, that you see the world in terms of
those who bully people and those who are bullied; and two that you place
a great store on courage, whatever the consequences. Because of these
narratives, you are programmed to stand up for yourself and your
convictions. But you also tend to overdo it, saying things you should
not have said…
I
wish my mind really processes things exactly and as clinically as you
have presented it. I don’t think about courage or anything. I am just
being myself. Those that know me 20 years ago will tell you that I have
improved in many ways in that I am now more restrained in my speech and
actions. I have learnt to keep quiet a lot more because I used to not
suffer fools gladly. I couldn’t tolerate nonsense. But now people will
come and you see some illiterates trying to set you up to collect your
money and I will listen. Before I would have cut him off and say ‘who do
you think you are fooling?’ But now I will listen and quietly talk him
out. All I am trying to say is that I am human and I don’t think that I
am being courageous. I just think that if something is wrong, it is
wrong. And I make that assessment and I try to respond to it. I think of
it as just being myself. That’s just how I am.
No,
controversy is not an adjective that is applicable to me. Controversy
is applicable to the assignments I have had the misfortune or fortune of
being given in government. My first job in executive capacity in
government was in the Bureau of Public Enterprises. You can’t privatise
quietly because it’s a controversial subject. You can’t even get two
people to agree on what privatisation is. Not only did I have the
Nigerian public to convince that privatisation is good, that the
government officials will not buy up everything and that those of us
that are doing the privatisation are not buying up everything. But
within the government every minister, every bureaucrat was fighting us.
The only support we got was from the media at that time. But everyone
else internally and externally was fighting us. From there I went to FCT
as a minister. And what was my mandate in the FCT? Restore the master
plan. Who will be affected? The biggest men in Nigeria. So, tell me how
doing that job will not make one look controversial. It wasn’t me, it
was the job. And if you are going to do it well, you will appear
controversial. As a person, I am shy and I keep to myself and mind my
own business.
Is it not possible to do a controversial job in a non-controversial way?
It’s
not possible. The fact that the job is controversial will give you that
tag of controversy. But in my personal life, I am not controversial.
Not that you constantly have this urge to be noticed?
No, in fact I want to disappear.
There is this belief that you own almost half of Abuja. Is it up to half or slightly more?
That
is totally false. Let me show you what I used to own. When we finished
the computerisation of AGIS (Abuja Geographical Information Systems), I
got a C of O for the whole of Abuja as the minister of FCT. But you see,
the title ended on the 29th day of May 2007 and so I don’t have a title
anymore. You see, there is a presumption largely confirmed by what
other ministers particularly those that came after me have done. That
once you are a minister you allocate plots of land to yourself. It’s not
true for me and I have not done it. I came to FCT with two plots of
land. General Mamman Kontagora gave me a plot of land in Asokoro; Abba
Gana gave me a plot in Gudu behind the legislative quarters. The one in
Asokoro I revoked because I had not developed it after eight years. We
had a rule that all plots that were undeveloped after eight years by
that time should be revoked and I revoked mine alongside. I swear to God
I left FCT with just one plot of land. I don’t have any other plot
elsewhere.
But there are also stories that you allocated plots of land to yourself, your children, wives and relatives, and maybe fronts…
Let
them bring the facts. Let them show me which plot of land I allocated
to myself. I did not. There was a decision in the Federal Executive
Council that every minister including me should be allocated a plot of
land. Every minister got a plot of land except me. How could I sit down
and approve an allocation to myself? I can’t do that.
My
wife applied for land in 2001 before I became FCT minister and the
application was brought along with others for approval. When I saw her
name I called the AGIS and told them to go and get the file of my second
wife because if I didn’t give them land at the same time, there would
be trouble. So they removed my wife’s name and went back and brought a
list containing the names of the two of them and I approved it. My wife
is entitled to apply for land and she is qualified to have a plot of
land and she is not me. So I approved a plot of land for each of my two
wives. Is that an offence? This is the issue and what I am in court for.
This is what I am being prosecuted for.
There
is nothing in the Land Use Act or the FCT Act that says my wife or
relation or friends should not apply for land or be entitled to a plot
of land in Abuja. Even the Reuben Abati that is writing nonsense about
me, I gave him a plot of land. I have the records. Now the same people
that got a piece of land from me are saying my wife is disqualified
because she is my wife. What nonsense is that?
You
were part of a very powerful economic reform team. But it seems that
team either got carried away with power or was naïve. Looking back, what
do you think such a team should have done differently?
We
were naïve but I don’t think we got carried away by power because we
were too busy. Perception and reality are different and in all honesty I
didn’t see any one of us in the economic team, particularly the core,
as getting carried away by any power. To tell you the truth, we were
working between 20 and 21 hours a day. You had no time to think about
power. We were driven by achievements and we wanted to achieve things.
But
we were naïve because we thought that our work alone would speak for us
after leaving office. We thought the quality of our work and the
commitment and the results that we had started registering would speak
for us. We thought we didn’t need to do more nor get involved in
politics. That was our biggest mistake. We refused to be part of any PDP
meeting or caucus. I was a member of PDP caucus by right as minister of
FCT and I went to Obasanjo the week before the first meeting and I
asked him to take me out. And this was where the political decisions
were being taken. This was how we were.
The
politically astute amongst us was maybe Charles Soludo. And perhaps
Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala who because of the World Bank experience understood
the importance of politics very well. So we were completely naïve. If I
have to do this all over again, the economic team will engineer the
set-up of a political team. And we will be sitting at the table so that
when the political decisions are taken we are part of it because when
the economic decisions are taken the president ensures that the
politicians are part of it.
What is your problem with late President Yar’Adua? Was it because he became president and you did not?
If
you read my book you will see that late Umaru Yar’Adua and I had a long
history of great respect. Even when we meet in the life-after I am
going to ask him what I did wrong to him because I still do not
understand why he had to do what he did to me. I have always had the
greatest respect for him. I supported him; I raised money for him. There
was nothing I didn’t do for him once Obasanjo took the decision to
anoint him. I think my fault is the result of what others have done in
my name. But not me. I saw him as my elder brother and that was why for a
long time I was baffled and went out of my way in my book to show a
letter that his father wrote my father before Umaru was born.
Umaru’s
father and my father worked together. His father was my father’s boss
but they were friends. My father was his Islamic teacher and so we had a
history. Umaru and myself were also born in the same village called
Dadauwa. We have a history that makes us like family. And when the
trouble started, my elder brother Bashir who gave me the letter made a
copy of the letter and attached a note and sent to Umaru to say this is
your younger brother and if he is misbehaving you can call him and even
slap him. Look at the relationship between your father and ours. But
Umaru didn’t respond. So till tomorrow I want to know what happened
because I like to learn from mistakes. If there was something I did to
Umaru that offended him so much I would like to know so that I don’t do
it to the next person. But everything I heard is something like this:
Obasanjo considered you and Umaru and picked Umaru and he felt you were
the prince that lost.
Okay,
what’s your problem with President Jonathan? You used to be friends and
you worked for him to get in as acting president. Is it because he
didn’t give you what you wanted?
I
don’t have any problem with him. My friendship with him dated to when
he was deputy governor of Bayelsa State. He used to come to my house. We
were friends and I want to believe we are still friends. But I guess we
fell out because I felt that he was not being a good president and did
not deserve to be re-elected. That is the root of the matter and I had
no expectations of anything from him. Before you see me working in the
government again, it must be somebody that I know I can work with
without trouble. I am not going to go into an arrangement that I know is
bound to fail. I know the key characters in that government and this
government. And I just knew that it wasn’t going to go anywhere and you
will end up being fired because you are too outspoken or too
argumentative or to be misconstrued as you too sabi.
One
thing I liked about Obasanjo is that he never had problem with people
disagreeing with him. As long as you are arguing logically and you give
him superior argument. He may shout at you and say ‘I don’t agree’ but
he will call you in say two days and say he had thought about what you
said and that even though he didn’t like the way you put it, he will
adopt and do it. He has no intellectual inferiority complex. But I know
some people with intellectual inferiority complex and people like that I
cannot get along with. I can’t see you doing nonsense and you are my
leader and I won’t tell you that ‘Oga this is wrong oh.’ I will not tell
you in a disgraceful way. I will wait and meet you one-on-one because I
believe that my job as a minister or as an adviser is to ground you to
reality and tell you the truth. You can reject it because you are the
boss, but my duty is to tell you. And if I tell you enough times and we
disagree enough times, I may decide to pack my bags and go.
Some
people feel that the Nasir el-Rufai they knew until about three years
ago was a nationalist. But the one of today is someone playing the
northern card…
No,
I am not. People are saying that because I chose to support General
Muhammadu Buhari and join CPC. For your information, I joined CPC
because of Pastor Tunde Bakare. Many people don’t know that it was
Pastor Bakare that dragged me to CPC. And he is not a northerner as at
the last time I checked. You see, we are approaching 2015 and politics
is around the corner and so it’s convenient for people to tag others.
Because some people see me as some kind of aspirant for an office, they
want to tag me. They are free to try and what I can respond to I will
and the rest I will leave it. I sleep well at night and I know who I am.
I know the people that know me and what they think of me, and I am
comfortable with that. I can’t convince everybody. Those that specialise
in mischief are outside my control. I can only respond when I have a
chance. I can’t do more.
Still
talking about President Jonathan, there was an article in the press
that made mention of some quantity surveyor and the accidental public
servant who believes they should continue to run the show. Is that the
problem you have with President Jonathan?
It
is absolute nonsense. There are two reasons why I haven’t responded to
that. First for me when you write a sketch and you are too cowardly to
mention my name I won’t respond. I don’t respond to cowards. That
article was simply cowardly because if you want to say I allocated land
to myself, wife and companies come out and say so, and we will meet in
court. That is the same way the same Reuben Abati wrote about General
Buhari and when his lawyers wrote to him he ran around town begging. Let
him mention my name if he is the true son of his father. I am saying
Reuben Abati is a coward; he should come out and mention my name. When I
want to write about him, I will mention his name.
Secondly,
I don’t respond to staff. I respond to presidents. Rueben Abati is a
staff and when I was a presidential staff I was higher than him because I
was a minister. He is just some adviser of some sort competing with two
or three other people with similar portfolio. I will not respond to
him. Others will respond to him and they have been responding. There is
no reason responding to anyone who thinks that we are yesterday’s men
because we are not running the show. Does Rueben think that I was
expelled from PDP? I wasn’t. I simply walked away. If I want to be in
the scheme of things, does it not make sense to remain in PDP? Why would
I leave PDP to join an opposition party in a country where opposition
parties have never been able to unseat the ruling party? He should at
least give me credit for having a brain.
I
chose to leave PDP voluntarily because I can no longer live with the
kind of characters and the thinking within PDP. He is the one that
joined PDP to eat. So who is he referring to as yesterday’s men? Is it
Oby that left the government and went to the World Bank and made a name
for herself and came back and still has a decent job? Before Segun
Aganga was offered Minister of Finance, it was Oby that was offered.
President Jonathan offered her the job and I am putting it out in the
public for them to deny it. It was Oby that suggested Segun Aganga and
another young man in Africa Development Bank. And that was how Segun
Aganga became finance minister when Jonathan became acting president.
And after he was elected as president, they still followed Oby to South
Africa to offer her the minister of power. Does that sound like
yesterday’s men?
We
chose not be in this government. I can speak for myself and Oby. It’s
not because of anything, but you can’t sit back and your country is
being ruined by people and you don’t say anything. And when you say
something, their response is to smear you. They expect that will work.
We will speak next week and the week after and the week after, till they
improve. We want them to improve because nobody wants to destroy them.
We have been there before them and we know what it takes to get the job
done. They should just do it. It’s not impossible.
You
have a new career as a social critic and an opposition politician. Some
people believe that your battle with late President Yar’Adua and
President Jonathan is more like a form of insurance. That if they
actually uncover any wrongdoing on your part, you will say it is
political persecution because you are in the opposition and a critic…
I
am not a social critic and they will not uncover anything. I am the
most investigated minister in the history of Nigeria. There is no
committee of the National Assembly that has not investigated me apart
from investigations by law enforcement agencies. Even Obasanjo got me
investigated five times. There is nothing to find because if there was
something to find they would have found it. I am not doing this to say
it is politics; I am doing this because I believe in what I am doing.
That’s who I am and that is what I am. But I dare them to find
something.
And if they find something, you will cry political victimisation…
No,
I will defend myself if it is substantive. But I will not respond to
some hungry PhD holder in theatre arts who wants to find a living.
Why is it that everywhere they say Nasir el-Rufai wants to run for presidency? Why do people keep saying it?
I don’t know why. You should ask them.
So if as it usually happens in Nigeria “your people” say we want you in 2015, what will you do?
I
have a candidate in mind and I will canvass for that candidate. My
candidate is General Buhari for the simple reason that the depth at
which Nigeria has fallen requires someone with his credibility and
history and integrity. Even his elderliness. But this is my opinion and
you can disagree with me but I am not an aspirant and not a candidate
for any office.
What if the merged party or even General Buhari himself say it is you they want?
I
will consult my family. The biggest problem I have is that my family
members will not talk to me if I go into government because of what we
have suffered on account of my public service. My wife has been detained
in this house for four hours; my wife has been invited to a police
station because of the plot I allocated to her. My wife and children
have been detained at airports; I have been exiled for 23 months. I am
saying this for you to understand what it takes to get my wife and
children to support it. Even my participation in politics is a big
issue. My being in a political party is a very big issue. We will cross
the bridge when the time comes. But I am not an aspirant and not
planning for anything. I want to see a very strong opposition party
emerge and I like to see my role and skills as being more applicable in
party organisation and management than in government. Then I am done.
Our
Guest Blogger Venussbay speaks with Ibok Archibong Offiong, the CEO of
jewellery company Verche l’art Cessoire. A 2012 YouWin winner, the Cross
Rivers native recently showcased her collection at the New York Fashion
Week and appeared on Moments with Mo. Offiong has a degree in Geology
and another in Oil and Gas Engineering. 
Our
first fashion show was the 2012 Ages of Fashion in Abuja, we also had a
couple of exhibitions at Fusion, Wedexpo, Nigeria Fashion Week, Glamour
magazine and the recent New York Fashion Week which was my first
international fashion week, and Runway 4 Abuja.
